SPEAKER_00 0:12

So hello everyone and welcome back to episode two of Change Agents. My name is Lisa Mo, and I am so excited to be here with my co-host, Joe Ayala, who I get to interview today and find out more about him today. So what's up, Joe?

SPEAKER_01 0:26

How's it going? We are in busy back to school time.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

I want to say I understand, but I'm in Hawaii right now.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

And we're all jealous.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Enjoying my life right now. But I feel for you. I do.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

I'm sure you do.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

I will remember you as I drink my Mai Thai.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

You have to sing the song Remember Me as well.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Yes. Yes. I got you. Last episode, you got to ask me all the questions, and we had some fun finding out about my past history. So I wanted to hear more about you. I want to hear your beginnings in education. And I'm going to take it back if you don't mind, because you did share just a little bit with me. Is that you were a referee for soccer? Am I correct with saying that?

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Yes. My sisters were big soccer players, and my mom was out there. And I was out there every Saturday. And in high school, just trying to earn some extra money. I was thinking, since I'm already out here, I might as well referee. And that was actually really fun. I got FIFA certified and everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Fancy. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

It was fancy except for the short shorts. I did not appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

So I have to ask, because now in your current role, which we will talk about, but what did 15-year-old Joe learn from managing a field full of competitive parents and players that still helps you today as a leader?

SPEAKER_01 2:06

I would say de-escalate. Parents would get so upset. And how to manage a very high stressful situation, even at 15 to now. Of course, there's different circumstances, but the key elements of maintaining your cool, being professional, and hearing them out without letting them take control has been very critical as a part of my career.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

That is at such a young age, like that is such a huge position. I've seen the parents on these fields. I've seen what goes down over there. Walk us through. Talk to us. After this position, where did you go?

SPEAKER_01 2:48

I came from like middle class parents, but there was money, but there wasn't any money for extras. And so again, 15, 15 and a half at this point. And I learned how to design resume. And then I applied to my high school work experience program that a position opened up in human resources. And so I applied, and the HR tech that was interviewing me caught me off guard. She said, You're overqualified for this position. And you have to understand that I thought everyone knew how to use computers. Granted, it's 1997, but it came so easily to me that I didn't think it was a skill. And so I put all the like software I know, and my parents bought me a computer when I was in middle school and I broke it and then had to learn how to fix it overnight before they woke up. And so that's how I got into computers. So she said, Yeah, we'll hire you, but I want you to know that there's filing and copying and doing the mail. I was 15 and a half. I was like, Yes, I need the money. I need to pay for my DC skate shoes or my alien workshop t-shirts. Of course. My parents aren't going to pay for that stuff, so I got to figure out how to pay for it. And yeah, that's got me into the door. That was my first district office job. Here I am, a 15 and a half year old, can't even drive, obviously, working in a human resource department for a school district of 20,000 students.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Gosh, I didn't even know that they had roles at that for that young of an age. And there you are, overqualified.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

I was like, what? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

So I want to kind of go back because you said that I love what you said is that you felt that everyone knew computers. And so what's your earliest memory of working with the computer? And then kind of tell us that story of you breaking the computer too, because I'm interested.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

It was like a tandy computer from Radio Shack, and this is like pre-Maddden. So it was called Front Page Sports. And I was trying to learn how to how do I play this game? And then it had a draft. And granted, like the graphics were abysmal. I never even liked the graphics, I just kind of used it as a a football simulation. You do a draft, you have free agents, people get hurt. And so I was like trying to play that game, and something happened, and then I had to reinstall it. How do you reinstall a whole computer? I think it was Windows 3.1. That's how I got started. And I didn't want to get in trouble. So I was like, how do I fix this? And I learned how to fix it, like kind of just like playing with it, understanding this is pre-internet, too. So again, I'm dating myself.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

This pre-internet, look at all of us now. We can't even go 10 seconds without being like, I'll just look it up. That's no, that's incredible. So as you're working at this district office at such a young age, what kind of turned you towards the education route?

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Yeah, I've always been a system thinker. I'm not sure if I exhaust people or even annoy people, but I want to know how things work, and then I want to know how to make them better. And so it's like something that's built in even at an early age. So, for example, there was like flyers that had to go out, and I taught them how to do labels, and then instead of stapling it, put it together. So I've always been a systematic thinking, like, how do we get better? And like that job, public education allowed me to have a lot of moms and to be around an educated workforce at a very young age is saw like the importance of education, the importance of public education. And I felt like it really created a major detour in my life. I just was thought, like, hey, like I make a good wage doing computers. And then when I was doing the HR job, as I graduate high school, I'm no longer qualified for obviously a high school work experience job. So the IT director came and tapped me, and then he said, Hey, do you want to come work for me? And so while I was going to college, I started working for him. So he was the director of technology, and his wife was a coordinator of education technology. So I was very lucky to have both aspects at a very early age. So that kind of got me into the educational technology space and seeing how technology influences public education. So that's like no at 17, I knew I wanted to be an IT director. It's both exciting but sad.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

But I think that's so surreal because now look at you, where you're at, and the journey that you've been on since. That's incredible because I think that kind of goes back to why the CTE programs are really starting to come forward, is just giving our students, our kids, these opportunities to see themselves in roles and kind of learn their skill set and look what it did for you at such a young age. That wasn't the plan for you. It's not like you were seeking it, but look at the exposure where it's led you.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

But in high school, they have the school of schools. I was in science and health. Again, it was like a major tutorial. And then I do want to add, I think education. My grandfather instilled in all his grandchildren learn as much as you can because no one can take that away. He was a small farmer. There's no future in small farming. He was already starting to see the big corporate farms take it take over from the small farms. I would even try to work for him on the farm. He's like, no, your place is not in the field, your place is in the classroom, and really kind of pushing that. And then I'd say I think five of my cousins, his grandchildren, are in public education.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

That's incredible. Brings a little tear to my eye. That is the way. So from here, have you remained in that district or have you moved forward to different districts?

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Yeah, one of the goals I said, my goal was to be IT director by 30. I didn't quite hit it, I hit 31. But before then, I wanted to know every role in the IT department, and I wanted to do every job before I became director. So if I was becoming director, I would understand what I'm asking people of and I would understand the work. So I I went from work experience student to college intern to tech one, got laid off, not because of anything I did, but just because it was like the budget cycle, and which we all are familiar with, unfortunately, with public education. And then I got rehired to do a data tech. So I've done tech one, tech two, data tech, database administrator, network administrator, system administrator. That kind of summarized, I got all my tech experience at Madeira Unified. And then Madeira Unified did a personnel commission, and that kind of changed how hiring happened. I ended up finishing school late, so I was two classes short for my college degree around that time, and so I didn't qualify for the director of technology, working 15 years in the same district, and for them to turn me away that I don't qualify. So then I became my ambition to finish my degree and get a director of technology position. So I applied a lot and learned one of the interesting changes that I had to make is interviewing, stop interviewing as a tech, but start to interview as a director. So when people would ask me a question, I would answer the technical answer, but I wouldn't always give the leadership answer. And so that took a little while for me to learn and like reshape my answers. But then thankfully, Soledad gave me a shot as director of technology. And I always like the joke, I've served two years in Soledad because Soledad is often known for a prison, not so much for a school district, but Soledad was a great learning experience to be a director. And then I went from there to Union School District, which is a K-8 school district in like San Jose, borderline Los Cados. And then from there I got the director of operations job. And that was something completely different. That's where I used my business degree. And I was in charge of maintenance, grounds, custodians. But it was such a fun job to see a blueprint actually go through all the stages and get built. Like at that time, we built five makerspaces, did solar panels, did a lot of cool projects. And I still get pride when I drive by those school sites and knowing that I was involved in those projects. And then from there, I started to do the C CBO program. And my mentor was Eric Dill, and hit an open email at Santa Clara Unified to go back into technology. And I started here in 2019. I've been here ever since. It's crazy that it's already been seven years, starting July 1.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

I want to go back to something you said at the beginning of this year. Like I had the school by 30. I didn't quite make it. It was 31.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

And in that means and I had no idea that people weren't in directors by 31. I had no idea.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Like I didn't know how ambitious that goal was, but no, then you're like collecting every job title, all these experiences. Like that is truly the act of a leader. And I think that really speaks so much about you, of what your ambition is. And so excuse me, I do want to ask you with all that, you've worked in enough districts now to know every district thinks that they're unique. However, they're not. So what's one challenge that's exactly the same everywhere?

SPEAKER_01 12:25

And we don't know how to create leaders.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Can we dive on that a little more?

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Which one? Okay. Yeah, so culture. Like I've been examining, like especially this year, like for our management retreat. Is there a different way to do that is better? Like I can be exhausting at times, so I'm always analyzing things. Is there a better way to kick off the school year? We play this game, and I think I mentioned it before, where one school year closes and the next school year begins, and I just don't feel like there's a continuity that expands at times. Like we have to pretend like that year doesn't exist anymore, but all the data from it. How do we bring people together, especially if they have a new superintendent, a new assistant superintendent? How do you reduce that time of trying to get everyone on board on the same page? And we've joked about icebreakers. I don't think icebreakers were talking, stand up and talk to a partner, talk to someone you don't normally talk to. Like I've done all the activities, I've done the clap, the stomp, I've even pretended to be a tree one year. I just don't think it works. And I'm really like diving into that. Like I hope that we get to have some guests to see like what really makes an impact.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

You mean putting chart paper on the walls and going around writing it?

SPEAKER_01 13:53

I think also education is so hard. And I also don't think we give it the credit for how hard it is when you have teachers' union, classified unions, like good, bad, or otherwise, but to try to get everyone to steer in the right direction, I haven't figured it out, and nor do I think I could figure it out, but I'm gonna try. How can we do things a little bit better? Because the culture, when you have to go through district resizing or because of lack of enrollment, or when you lose key leaders, like how do you adjust? How do you stay a tight group? Because the work is hard. The work is hard for a classroom teacher, the work is hard for a paraprofessional, the work is hard for a secretary, like principals, like my hat goes off to principals. I would not want to be a principal in this day and age. No one's happy. It's COVID all over again for the poor principals. Like the parents are upset about this, the teachers are upset about this, the district office is telling you you need to do this. Like, that is a very tough position. So I like to think of it as how can culture help heal and change. I don't know. I just feel like no matter what district I get in, it doesn't union was pretty unique, had a very special culture, but that's probably the most unique one. Soledad went through multiple different transitions with superintendents. You have some school districts that can have five superintendents in five years. And how do you even establish a culture when that's going on and taking place? So I don't have answers. I'm desperately seeking the answers that to how do we improve, how do we improve the culture in education?

SPEAKER_00 15:27

And I hope through this, through our podcast, bringing on other guests, how can we bring that community together to really make changes and point out what's working and what's not working? And where do we go from there? How do we problem solve? Because a lot of this we all see and we can acknowledge it in a nice LinkedIn post, but what are we actually doing together to move the needle and make that impact? And so I kind of want to go again because you touched on this, but you said that they're not also preparing leaders. And so can we talk a little more about that? What how can we support that? How can we really build our teachers, build our principals, build our superintendents, build our cafeteria workers, our bus drivers, you know, our school community?

unknown 16:20

No.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Yeah, no, I agree with you. They go hand in hand because if you have a good culture, it kind of creates leaders that continue that culture. I think strong organizations, strong companies that do it. And it is difficult. You can read a business management book and you know you try to apply it to education, or read a military book and try to apply it to education. It doesn't always land, it doesn't always work. One thing I realize is if we're doing change agents and we want to encourage change agents, sometimes I've seen where the culture rejects the upcoming leaders. And so then you have, and I'm not sure if you've ever been in a district that's been part of it, but you have like a mass exodus. And so all these people from this one district go all these other places and be successful. I remember when that happened in Soledad, a lot of us are now director of technology, but there's a couple that are superintendents, assistant soups, but it was from this core group of leaders that we had, but because we the climate or the culture couldn't fully support it, we had to go elsewhere. Not to say sometimes you do just have to go elsewhere to find jobs. You run out of jobs. There's only so many jobs to go around. I just think how when I went from network admin to my first director of technology role, no one saw the amount of homework I put in. I got an audible subscription. I listened to every leadership book that I can get a hold of. Because my work with network admin or system admin allowed me to have an earbud or a headphone in my ear so I could focus on learning. Like the Zappos founder, he was big on culture. How do you build that culture? Interesting thing is, my original director of technology boss paid me to read the Fish book and another book called Raving Fans. So he established to me here's a level of customer service that I want you to have. And that's shaped my whole career. My goal is to be like a super friendly IT director for teachers. And at the annoyance of sometimes my IT staff, like, why are we doing this? No, because this is we're in the service industry. Overall, I just feel when a person goes from a teacher position to a coordinator or a TOSA to like when they cross over that line, or you're no longer a teacher, now you're in management, there's not much that prepares them for it. I've also seen people fail because they don't know how to accomplish projects, not because they don't have the technical skills to do the project, because they didn't build a relationship with someone that was critical in order to get that project done in that organization.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

But I think that you touched on so many important things right now. This actually came up yesterday on LinkedIn, and I had just talked about that within myself of coming out of the classroom into an office position, district office. And I do want to say that I am now part of the club of the one earbud in my ear, which I'm very much enjoying. But I love how you worded that is that in one breath, something I'm learning so much about you is you have been, like, for lack of better terms, a lifelong learner. And something that you mentioned at the beginning of this is that you wanted to be part of every role before you got to this director position. You wanted to understand the ins and outs, and that isn't the case for everybody. And so we do see leaders get put into these positions, but they have no ground of fully understanding the ins and outs. And so I think that's so important because even stepping into this role that I'm in now, no one's telling me what to do. No one's saying this is I need you to do this, I need you to do that. It really is you're on your own kind of thing. And I think part of that success for you has been to listen to others and listen to what are the needs. So you said earlier that you're a systems person. Like, how can we make this better? How can we make it more efficient? How can we make this towards our goal? And I think that is sometimes something that our schools, our districts lose is that we're not listening to each other. And that goes back to the culture. What do they need versus what do I think they need?

SPEAKER_01 20:38

And I think you know overall for culture, being in IT is a very interesting position, especially early in my career. I could go in, people were A, usually happy to see you, and B, you can go into classrooms and be ignored in a sense. Oh, he's just here to fix that problem. And you get to see teaching classroom management. I even did this when I was a tech. I would go into teachers' classrooms to see if this is the right teacher for my son. I got to see live actions, and then being a tech and being at the school sites and the district office, you get to see how different departments work, how to get things done, how to get this purchase order, like this requisition magically converted into a purchase order so teachers could have licenses for XYZ, working with secretaries and custodians at school sites. You learn so much about climate and culture from the people that are seeing it every day. And Goodwill Hunting really messed me up. So it came out in the 90s, and I just learned that oh, I don't need a degree, a master's degree, a certificate to learn anything as long as I can use it as a public library card. But now with AI is so much easier, I can learn as much as I possibly can. And I just I went too far on one side of it, and now I have to go back and get the degrees and stuff that actually showcase that I know what I'm doing on paper. But I just love learning. Love learning about everything. My YouTube rabbit holes are quite extensive. I don't even know how I get some places, but I'm just like, I want to learn about everything. Like before we did this podcast, how do we become a better storyteller? How to develop a stand-up routine. I think that is stuff that I want to improve on. When I'm speaking in front of a group of people, how do you say a joke that's professional, but not too corny, not too much of a dad joke? So that I just I'm fascinated with learning. And like that's why public education is so inviting to me. And I've never been a classroom teacher. I've never had a group of students look up to me. I've led lessons before when we did AI or when we did like we did a fun one, like students give you instruction and what to do. And if they don't give you the exact instruction, you so you can have fun with it. Like you open up a water bottle, yeah, and then they're yelling at you. Like, no, don't do that. We're just teaching them how to code and programming and the computer at that time didn't really know. But I've been always fascinating with teaching adults, and so I've had a great deal of experience leading trainings for teachers. I'm not going to teach you the science standards for your fifth grade classroom, but I will show you how to use Google Workspace to use it more efficiently to help you manage your classroom. So that's where I found my niche.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

That you talked about, you're your systems problem solver. We all need that. So I am I'm just amazed at your journey, truly, because I keep going back to how young you started and the goals that you've set for yourself. But I have to ask, because I am a classroom teacher, what's one thing teachers do that secretly makes your technology department twitch?

SPEAKER_01 23:51

I would say not try, not try to understand, not make any attempt. Just immediately give up. I wouldn't want that from a student, and I don't want that from a teacher or anyone. If you've tried, all the respect in the world. And the saying that we try to do is how do we make the most complex systems simple? If we're doing a good job, the most complex systems will be simple.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

So with that, then so what's something teachers do that makes your day?

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Of course, there's no better feeling for a tech to have a problem and be able to solve it. That feels good. I tell the technology support team, make people's day. You have a great job. You get to go around and make people's day. You've solved a problem for them. I would say what I enjoy best from teachers now at this role, at the director of technology role, is seeing someone light up, either light up for their classroom and say, I use this and this worked. Or seeing someone like me teaching them our hey, here's a little tip on how to do that a little bit better. You did great, but just if you make this little tweak, I think it'll be 10 times better. Seeing them do that and then sharing that with another teacher. Love seeing that. Teachers are awesome, it's a very difficult job, but it's always been a great partnership.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Well, you are so meant to be where you are, like truly.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Sometimes it doesn't feel that way.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

No, like even the way you're like saying how you you don't like when teachers don't try, like that is such that's beyond being a leader, beyond being an educator. That's just so grounded in like that human-centeredness of just seeing you want to see people thrive, and that goes back to your systems, making things efficient, where it's like, just try. No, you are so where you need to be. So 15-year-old Joe should be so proud.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

I do look back sometimes and man, that was quite a journey because you never know you're gonna accomplish the goal until you're there, and then you like looking back, it's of course it makes sense, but going through it doesn't always make sense when I didn't give the opportunity to apply for a director of technology role. Like that one hurt, like that was a professional like setback. And I didn't think for a time I kept that letter framed. You do not qualify until I was like that was just fueled to the fire. But I know you're interviewing me, but I have a quick question for you. Yes, as a teacher, what is an annoying thing from the technology department that you don't like to hear?

SPEAKER_00 26:28

It's hard because now I'm on the other side, so think we're we're amazing. No, no, I think what's always hard is when we know what we need for our classroom, we know the students that are in front of us and the needs that are there. And but we're being told, like, oh no, we already have this platform, so use this. And but that platform doesn't have. Did you read the email? Did you see what I needed?

SPEAKER_01 26:55

That's fair. That's fair. And I think that's I think that's where the bad part of like system thinking of and like one software for all approach. One thing we do unique here is I don't care if a teacher wants to use a Chromebook, if they want to use a Mac, if they use it, want to use a Windows PC, whatever platform they're more familiar with is the device that I want them to teach with. So does it make things a little bit more complicated on the IT side? Yes. Have I probably given that answer to a teacher? Probably, hey, don't use this. We have pair deck instead. Yes. So I'm sure I've left a thousand percent.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

There we go. We just send the email back. Great, thanks.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

The same, like, it's fine. It's fine, it's just fine.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

It's great, it's fine. So you've been promoted a lot. What surprised you the most about becoming the person everyone comes to for answers, including me?

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Um you have to keep balance. Multiple times in my career, especially during COVID, I went to a place where there is no reserve left. And so I've learned that if I'm not taking care of myself, I will be no good to others. And when I burn out, all my customer service, all my good intentions kind of goes out the window and it becomes just a task or a ticket. So I've worked really hard recently in my career is how do you have a balance? How do you not work 24-7? Because it can be very easy to do. Like, I have more tasks to do every day than I can physically accomplish. And even that, like at the start of school, we get 10 times as many tickets that we have throughout the school year. So it's like a major impact. Again, like I'm gonna ask how do we do this better? Like, I don't like to see the text tired, I don't like to see everyone overwhelmed. I haven't figured that out yet, but definitely a balance because when everyone's relying on you, you'll like no one get to see it, but there's times where I just need to escape from everyone and just recharge and sleep. Oh my gosh. Early in my career, I thought I could go without sleep. Like I would, I was a historic, like stay up as long as you can, get a couple hours. I even led a PD one day, which I do not recommend this Sunday night. I was making sure everything was set up. I was double testing everything, checking it out, and then I went home, it was like 5 a.m. Slept for an hour, got up at 6, and then led a full day of PD. Do not do that. Balance and sleep. Like as I'm getting a little bit older, I'm like, oh my gosh, sleep is so critical. Just cognitively, again, patience, customer service. If you don't have sleep, you're not gonna be a fun person to be around.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

I am working on that. I am trying to learn that myself. So I love those responses. And I'm actually thinking ahead for this podcast. So may this be our call to action for someone to be on of just talking about yeah, that balance, that self-care balance as leaders and how that supports the roles that we do as well. Like, how do we balance? Because I think a lot of us are very you said that list happens and we feel like I could do it, I could do it. I don't need to sleep, I don't need to rest. I got a nice five-minute break, but this needs to get done now. So, how do we find that balance and prioritize? Because, like you said, if you're not, if you're not a hundred percent, you can't give a hundred percent. And somewhere it's going to lack, and may that be professionally or personally, it's gonna hit somewhere. And unfortunately, our body does keep count, so it will come out one way or another.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

So there's a book, Ryan Holiday, The Obstacle is away, either professionally or personally. If you don't go through a lesson, that lesson will keep on reappearing in your life. And so when the lesson is in front of you, sometimes we want to go around it or we want to avoid it or we want to push it down. I would say that's another thing that I've learned. It's just go through it. I have another story that I would love to share that another time of just how to be resilient when you feel like your whole world is falling apart. I think most people can handle, oh, I have a flat tire, but when you have a flat tire, your windshield's broken, you have no gas, and your car won't start, and you're on a side of a freeway. When you start to stack up events against you, it's really hard to be resilient. And it's really hard to keep yourself contained and you start to feel like, oh man, this is too much, or maybe I'm not doing something right in my life if I'm having these problems. The environment doesn't always dictate who you are. I think sometimes people will leave a job thinking how it reflects them when no, that actually that it wasn't you, it was just that time period. If you would have gone through that, you would have been so much stronger instead of avoiding that lesson. Again, it all depends on the circumstance. But I think going through lessons, our problems is a great way to become a change agent because when it is the worst going through it, once you get on the other side of it, the confidence that you have is incredible, and what you can do from that point is so much stronger.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Gosh, I think we all needed that message right now. I think that's such a good closing in the sense of what's to come, too, is because we all are facing so much from the global standpoint of things going on in the world to how it's impacting us in our careers and then how it's affecting us personally, and you know, it does take this level of resiliency, but it's how do we do that healthily? How do we get through things and know that there is another side to this? And it is about facing it and going through it because it can be scary, and it is sometimes easy to be like, I'm not gonna worry about that right now, I'm just gonna keep pushing that away, and it does start to pile and it does start to hit you on the inside before you even realize it, you know. So you do have to just go forward with it, and I think that goes back to the beginning with you, which is the culture that we create together, too.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Educators are very passionate, and that passion can be if you get it combined with a bad leader, it can be taken advantage of, and then also that passion can also lead to incredible burnout. I think someone said recently education is hard, and I don't think we acknowledge that enough. Not the pay, not this and that, just trying to educate students in the 21st century with parents of the 21st century, with employees that span multiple generations. It's just an interesting time to be in public education.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Just trying to find the balance in all of it and trying to make everyone happy when, like you said, it also has to go back to you, too, though. Are you happy? Are you not burning yourself out trying to be everything for everyone? And it is a very hard, challenging time. But I have to add the mismo positively, we could do hard things. Yes, we can.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

We can do hard things well, I'll add.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

So I don't have all the answers. Lisa doesn't have all the answers. This podcast is not going to be us saying how we figured everything out. This podcast, we wanted to bring guests on, some of our friends, some of our future friends, as you like to say, because everyone could be a friend. One of the key things that we want to do is try to solve some of these problems. Be a change agent in public education.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

I'm excited. And then eventually, too, we'll talk some Madden football too.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

It's been so long since I played that game.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

We're gonna we're gonna discuss that. Um so thank you so much, Joe. Thank you so much for walking us through. There's so much more, and this is only the beginning to continue learning from you, hearing from you, and just learning together. And as you said, bringing on more guests and just keeping this conversation going.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Thank you, Lisa, for interrupting part of your vacation to record this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Oh, if you insist, no, I'd there's nowhere else I'd rather be doing this right now. So thank you so much. So, this podcast is called Change Agents. So we're looking forward to continuing to make changes by listening to each other and to all of you. So, thank you so much for listening to episode two.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Thank you so much.